I believe that circumcision is unnecessary.
When I was pregnant with Olivia, I did not dedicate a single thought to the topic of circumcision. If you would have asked me, I would have said, “Why of course we would circumcise our boy! It’s just not healthy not to. And besides, it might hurt his self-esteem to look different from the rest of the boys.” But, like I said, I did not have to make that decision. Yet.
Two years later, I did.
When I found out I was pregnant with a boy, I was still assuming that I would have to endure the ancient process of circumcision. I was not happy about it. I knew by then what the sound of a screaming baby does to a mother’s heart. I was not looking forward to my baby boy being hurt. But what could I do? It was for health purposes, after all.
Then a friend emailed me and asked me if we were planning to circumcise. When we told her we were, she wrote back telling me to “just look into it” and gave some informational sites: www.mothering.com, www.cirp.org, www.nocirc.org, and www.aap.org.
But, I have to admit, the first site I went to was Dr. Sears’. He is pretty much my “go-to guy” concerning anything child-related. He was the one who taught me about co-sleeping and breastfeeding. He was the one who taught me how to handle my “fussy child.” I have a lot of respect for Dr. Sears. You’ll hear me mention him a lot when it comes to What I Believe.
On his site, Dr. Sears addresses each medical reason used for circumcision. And he refutes each and every one of them. For integrity purposes, I found another reliable source by the American Association of Pediatrics (AAP) that admits circumcision is not medically necessary any longer (if it ever really was).
Below are the reasons used for circumcision and the arguments I found that disproved them:
- Cleanliness. One of the most common reasons for circumcision is because a circumcised penis is easier to clean than an intact one. And your mouth would be easier to clean without teeth. Should we remove them too? (Here, you might argue that teeth have a specific purpose and wonder what purpose a foreskin would serve. I will get to that later.)
- Decreased risk of STDs. The American Association of Pediatrics disagrees: “…behavioral factors appear to be far more important risk factors in the acquisition of HIV infection than circumcision status.”
- Decreased risk of penile cancer. A report by the AAP claims that worldwide, the rate of penile cancer is 9 to 10 cases per 1 million men. And while they admit that the risk among uncircumcised men might be as much as three times higher, they also say that good hygiene may be the only preventative measure needed. They end with this conclusion: “Nevertheless, in a developed country such as the United States, penile cancer is a rare disease and the risk of penile cancer developing in an uncircumcised man, although increased compared with a circumcised man, is low.”
- Avoiding infections in the foreskin. Dr. Sears takes care to differentiate between infections and irritations for this section. He states that, yes, an irritation may occur, but it can be cured with a simple washing (and most likely prevented with a simple washing). Infections, on the other hand, are rare. And they are easily cleared up with antibiotics. And, by the way, did you know that infection is also a side-effect of circumcision? But we’ll talk about that later.
- Avoiding the need to do it later on. Very rarely, infections in the foreskin require circumcision later in life. And this would require general anesthesia. But it is so rare, it is not a valid reason for neonatal circumcision. In fact, again, circumcision itself can go wrong, heal poorly, and require a second time under the knife.
- Avoiding bladder infections. It used to be thought that circumcising would reduce the risk of bladder infections. However, Dr. Sears refers to the AAP when he claims the risk is too small to worry about and occurs only in the first few years of life.
- Want him to look like Dad. If a young uncircumcised boy is comparing himself to his circumcised father, Dr. Sears raises a good point in that he is likely to notice other things before he notices any extra foreskin – let’s just leave it at that.
- Don’t want him to be teased. In this site, Dr. Sears claims the rate of uncircumcised infant males in the United States to be as high as 50%. And his odds of being different are decreasing every year.
- An intact penis requires too much care. The truth is, a circumcised penis requires more care than an intact one. Until the foreskin retracts on its own (anywhere between three years old and adolescence) no extra care is required. After that point, cleansing is very simple. A circumcised penis must have a protective lubricant applied at every diaper change. And it becomes more difficult if an infection occurs.
Now, the reasons to keep your baby boy intact:
- God put that foreskin there for a reason. Yes, in His covenant with Abraham, He told His Chosen People to remove it. He did not explain why. It could have been for hygienic reasons, as there were no showers back then. Or it could have simply been a way to set them apart.
As a gentile family, our covenant with God is not through Abraham, but through Jesus, who does not require circumcision. In fact, Romans and 1 Corinthians both state that circumcision is not as important as following the law. Galatians declares faith more important than circumcision. Paul goes as far as to say that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. But the point in those verses is merely that our hope and salvation is no longer dependent upon circumcision.So now that we have established that the foreskin was never meant to be removed on gentiles, we can assume that it has a purpose and there is no reason to remove it.
- The foreskin is filled with nerves. These nerves are rather useful… later in life. That is all we will say about that.
- The foreskin is protective. Rubbing and chafing against clothing can desensitize a man over the years. The foreskin, when left on, can protect against this.
- Ethical issues. A popular reason not to remove an infant’s foreskin is the simple fact that he has no say in the matter; it is decided for him. If he decides later in life that he would prefer this cosmetic procedure, then it can be done. But the ethical thing to do until then would be to keep him intact.
- The pain. The pain of circumcision can put a baby boy into shock, affecting his ability to nurse in those first crucial days. Yes, topical anesthetics are applied, but they cannot possibly last as long as the pain does. And look further into this site to see how circumcision is performed if you want a better idea of the true ordeal that it is.
- The complications. I have a friend who had to have her little boy re-circumcised because it healed poorly. And this had to be done when he was over a year old, with general anesthesia. This site lists more complications that I will not get into. Suffice it to say that whenever a knife is involved, mistakes can be made.
So, no. Benjamin is not circumcised. I am sure, when he is older, he will love the fact that I told the Internet that. But my point is not to embarrass him, but to inform you. I believe circumcision is unnecessary, and more harmful that leaving your baby boy as he was created to be.
What do you believe? Remember to link back to this site in your WIB posts. Thanks for playing!
The first set were the basic reasons we chose to skip the circ on our boy. The second set of reasons, I feel, replicates to some extent the strength of arguments for circ.
That is, I believe the arguments saying don’t do it because the cutting is painful and the skin is protective are parallel to the pro-circ’ers arguments about cleanliness and STD protection: Sweeping generalities that are accurate in their own realm (there are reasons they became arguments in the first place) but also have exceptions and work-arounds.
One ex: I’ve actually heard mothers claim their sons sucked the candy pacifier the whole way through without more than a few tears.
Anyway, I’m not disagreeing with you, just putting up my hand to say what types of arguments I find most meaningful.
Oh, and I had a WIB-ish post from a while back about my problem with the phrase “Trusting God” for family size, if anyone wants to see it (that’ll be the post you see if you click to my blog here.
Ah, I see your point. I guess the main reasons I held to in the second set were really #1 and #4 anyway (if #4 is used to imply that circumcision is merely a cosmetic procedure). The rest, I agree, can be argued against in the same manner I argued against circ in my first set.
And I believe I have read that post on trusting God with your family size. I’ll have to re-visit it tomorrow to make sure. But if it is the same one, I remember liking it a lot!
i don’t believe in circ either and my son is intact. i wrote about this topic and why my husband and i decided against circ before julian was born.
my post is going up in another half hour or so and will be about what i believe re: children and food. i will link to it tomorrow.
email me if you need help w/ mr. linky or email him. he’s very good about helping ppl out (at least he was prompt to respond to me when i first had questions about using it). 🙂
amy
Here’s my link!!!
http://www.beautyfromchaos.com/?p=556
I hope you get Mr Linky to work!
great post…my husband is circ..and ds isnt…dh always said he didnt want his boy to look diff from him….we researched (i too love dr sears)
-first dh’s brother had it done when he was 3 and it was painful so everyone said do it as a baby
-the best quote i had found was…yes it may need to be done later, but he would be under anesthetic…and anyhow…we may need to remove our appendix or tonsils, we dont remove them at birth JUST IN CASE..fix it when the need arises…
-im also big on , God doesnt make mistakes…
-dh always told me guys dont look THERE in the locker room, so what does it matter
-i’m canadian, in ontario circ’s arent covered by free healthcare anymore…there are deemed unneccesary (later when its needed it is covered) and most drs here wont do it at birth anymore…its very hard to find one…and its 400$
celina in canada
Celina – All good points. Some states here in America don’t cover it either. I especially appreciated your comment about tonsils and appendixes. Why remove them unless there is a need? Thanks for commenting!
Oh I saw a sign at my dr’s office the other day saying that Circs aren’t covered by Medicaid anymore, and Like Celina said it was $400 upfront if you wanted to have it done.
I have a feeling a lot less boys are going to be Circ now.
We did the circ and I’m still glad we did. Doesn’t mean I don’t enjoy reading these posts anyway. I like to hear all perspectives. What made my decision is a person’s son who went through much discomfort and irritation from infections leading up to his circ as a 12 year old. Being a woman I don’t believe I understand enough about it. Would feel more informed making the decision if I was a man :).
Hi, thanks for another interesting and thought-provoking post! I hope you don’t mind if I play devil’s advocate! As a disclaimer, I tend to believe that circumcision is a personal (and not moral) choice and do not condemn or condone anyone for making whatever decision they think is best. I appreciate your thoughtful post, and will add a few comments of my own if you don’t mind!
One thought is that you may want to keep in mind that the statistics of caucasian boys who are circumcised are much higher than 50 percent (I was told it was closer to 85%). Depending on the area in which your son grows up, he still might be in the minority as far as circ. is concerned. This wasn’t a big deal to me, especially since my younger son is not caucasian anyway, but thought it was an interesting point if the “will he fit in” argument was a concern.
As far as the ethics argument are concerned (i.e. he doesn’t have a choice in the matter), I tend to feel that everything we do for our children is that way. Seeking their best interests of course, my husband and I decide many things for our children, about which they had no choice: their names, the way in which we raise them, the values we instill in them, the location where they grew/will grow up, whether or not they will be spanked, whether or not they will be raised in a church, whether or not they are encouraged or allowed to participate in sports, music, etc. God gave us children to raise up and I personally believe that we are entrusted with the privilege of making decisions on their behalf — circumcision included.
Great post! Sorry this is so lengthy!!
Hello, I’m a lurker, but I have a slightly different perspective on this one! We live in the SF bay area, where more like (i think) 70% of boys are not circumcised. We did the research and definitely believe that in general, circ is not necessary. however, due to my husband’s family history of military service, we chose to circ our boy. in any sort of war zone, all the rules about cleanliness fly out the window. keeping clean is sometimes not an option. my husband has known many soldiers who experienced problems, especially those in humid areas or jungles.
also, if one does need a circ as an adult, they can be exceptionally painful (far more so than as a child) because of the combination of stitches and the way a man wakes up… i’ll leave it at that.
i’ve been looking forward to reading your ideas on this! thanks for letting us in on your decision making process!
Thanks for this post. Well put.
As for the “doesn’t match daddy” argument, Daddy can google “foreskin restoration” and by the time the son is old enough to notice, Daddy can look intact again!
Can I just say this:
You ladies are AMAZING. Way to take a potentially confrontational post in such grace and stride! Thank you for giving me your opinions, whether they be for or against circumcision.
Jes – You were the one I was thinking about when I made the comment about some states not paying for circumcision. Thanks for leaving that comment!
Charlotte – You are right about the ethnicity of the child being taken into account when considering the percentage of intact boys. I bet Caucasian is at the bottom of the list. However, with fewer and fewer insurance companies paying for the procedure, I doubt it will be much longer before even the percentage of circumcised white boys drops.
Western Warmth – If I would have had the experience of knowing that poor 12 year old boy, I might have a different stance today! Instead, I knew a poor toddler boy who had to be re-circumcised and so I was influenced the other way.
Miranda – Thanks for de-lurking! I think you raise a good point about men in potentially unclean environments. It’s so hard to tell whether you’re going to be giving birth to an army-man or not! 🙂 No one in my husband’s family is in the military, though. My father was in the National Guard, but… yeah. Needless to say, he never went anywhere exotic. So I think we’ll be safe. But I understand your decision. Oh, and … “stitches”? Adult circumcision requires stitches? I had no clue.
Mrs. B – I hadn’t even brought up the concept of foreskin restoration – my post was long enough without it! But you have a good argument there. And you got a chuckle out of me in the process.
Thanks all!
Had our babe born this past July been a boy I’m not sure we would have done a circ. First of all, we went with a midwife in a birth center, so there was no immediate access. Second, had we done it (which my hubby still wasn’t sure how he felt about it) we would have gone to a rabbi and paid cash. Rabbi’s are “supposedly” better than the docs. I really don’t think it’s necessary, but again my hubs was gonna call the decision.
I do know that when my oldest (now 16) was circumcised he was still very upset when they brought him back to my room in the hospital. When he was around 2 or 3 I had to take him to a specialist because some of the foreskin had reattached itself to the head. The guy just yanked the foreskin back, sending my little guy in the stratosphere! I was so mad!
Great post!
Like the vaccination issue I posted about on the last WIB, it really is a very personal decision that should be made by individual families.
Just found your blog fellow natural momma, and what a great post to land on!
My sons are intact. I would add to the “in case later” argument this line of reasoning:
statistically speaking one in eight women will get breast cancer. Should we cut off our daughter’s breasts as a precaution?
I also love that you bring up Scripture. I am a Christian, and my understanding is that God asked the Jews to circumcise as a religious sacrifice, to set them apart. The pain of such and the visual reminder would serve as a constant in their lives to remind them of their choice to serve God. As Christians however, we have a “circumcision of the heart” according to Paul, and our sacrifice is picking up of the torture stake, not a literal cutting away of flesh.
Great topic!
Well, speaking as a male, I just have a couple comments to make:
1/ don’t believe what they say about people ‘not looking there’ They do. I did, everyone does. It’s part of growing up. I’m not saying that it’s going to have a large impact on a boy’s growing up (it didn’t for me), just know that it is noticed.
2/ HIV != all STD’s. Just because it’s true for a single virus/disease, doesn’t mean it’s true for all of them.
3/ I’m very glad that my parents had my circumcised. I will most assuredly circumcise any boy that my soon-to-be wife bears for me.
4/ Yes, cleanliness is an off-setting factor, but face it, how many males do you know are super-clean 😉 Seems like we should do all we can to give them the leg-up.
5/ As for reason #3 not to do it, well, get back to me on that. I can’t really speak from experience yet.
🙂 Thanks, AJ, for a guy’s perspective. I was hoping one of you would be brave enough to speak up.
Any guys out there that feel differently?
AJ, I was doing some thinking on your comment, and decided to voice my thoughts.
1) Keep in mind that with more and more insurance companies not covering circumcision, soon, it will be the circumcised that are looked at funny in the locker rooms.
2) I’m not sure what you meant by your HIV !=STD statement… could you clarify?
4) (I skipped number 3) As for cleanliness, maybe it’s time boys started taking better care of themselves. They don’t have to follow the stereotype, you know. And think of my analogy with teeth – When you don’t brush your teeth, you will have to endure the painful consequences. Same with not taking care of other parts of your body. Girls are prone to infections when they do not keep clean – but I most ASSUREDLY do not want ANYTHING removed.
5) I think you might have been referring to #2 on the second set of reasons. And if you were, then you most likely won’t notice any desensitization for quite some time (hopefully). But keep in mind that Viagra wouldn’t be as popular in our culture if there wasn’t something going wrong in that department.
Thanks for commenting!
Thanks for the post, Beth. I didn’t have my son circumcised for a few reasons: I honestly had not looked into it as much as I should have. I was too worried about turning my breech baby and the c-section, that I didn’t not research it. Daniel and I did talk about it some, and knew that circumcision was not thought necessary any more, so we were already leaning that way. Furthermore, when our baby was born, he was not covered by insurance (due to all the insurance problems!), and I didn’t even know where/who/etc. would do it (it wouldn’t be the doctor)- I was out of it, and wouldn’t have understood all the medical stuff in Spanish anyway. And I was very hesitant about having a surgery being performed on my baby here. Health care in general is not as good in the D.R. as it is in the States!
Thanks for this informative post. We are in the process of deciding what we will do with our little boy due in January. Thanks for the great links. I’ll be sure to have my husband read this one.
Trina
“Any guys out there that feel differently?”
I doubt it. For the most part, guys are fine with whatever choice their parents made; the only complaints I have ever heard come from uncircumsized guys about the extra difficulty of keeping clean and free of infections and such.
The problem with the comparison of circumcision to something like an appendectomy is this: circumcision is no big deal for a baby; it is painful for a little while, and that is it. For an adult male, on the other hand, it is absolutely horrendous; it involves excrutiating pain and puts you out of commision for quite a while (see Genesis 34). If the same were true of appendectomies, I would venture to guess that they would indeed be routine at a very young age. Sure, nothing is wrong at the time, but it would be a relatively minor procedure to eliminate the risk of something going wrong in the future and requiring an awful experience. And I see circumcision basically the same way — it is very minor and it makes life a tad easier in ways, and also eliminates the possibility of the need for it later in life.
Hi, I’m de-lurking as well 🙂
Thank you for your thoughtful post on this sensitive topic. If I may, I’d like to address some of the comments…
In general, I don’t think it’s fair to do ANY procedure based on “what-ifs” when the “what-ifs” are either nebulous (such as how a person MIGHT feel) or the risks miniscule (circ’ing because someone MIGHT not take good care of themselves/might live in a jungle/be in the military/contract infections or penile cancer) especially when the benefits of NOT doing it are less nebulous and the risks far rarer. Yes, we do make many decisions for the good of our children that they don’t have control over…like, their names, whether they are breastfed or not, and how they are schooled. Of course, there aren’t any true contraindications of breastfeeding, names can be changed, and improper or inadequate schooling can be overcome. But the medical facts support NOT circumcising or a neutral position. And it is one that can’t be truly and fully reversed. Once it is gone, it is gone.
Considering what it IS, it seems to me that such a decision about the integrity of an individual’s body should be up to the individual. If, for medical or cosmetic reasons, circumcision later IS needed, it can be done. And I feel like it needs to be stressed that it is VERY RARE for this to occur as a need. Here is some information about adult circumcision…it is not the worst, most painful and awful procedure in the world. WARNING: penis pictures! http://www.aafp.org/afp/990315ap/1514.html
As far as the comments about the appendix, the appendix DOES have a function. And to remove it (or the tonsils) “just in case” would NOT be a good idea. Mostly, our bodies are best left alone and not cut open. The risks of infection for a circumcision are very real, as are the risks for an appendectomy, as well as the risks of anasthesia. Once again, it’s a risks/benefits analysis. And the benefits do not come out on the side of circ’ing or appendectomies. 🙂
As far as a male’s perspective on this, my best male friend is uncirc’d, and very adamant that his children be left intact. I admit to a bit of jealousy based on some comments his wife has made about life with an uncirc’d man. And there are plenty of men out there who are not happy about being circ’d and either trying to regrow/restore their foreskin or at least whine about it online 😉
As far as whether or not a child will be branded “strange”, the fact is, circumcision rates ARE falling and continue on a downward trend. By the time our sons are old enough to notice the differences, even more people will have made the choice, and it will be even less strange.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion. This is just my 2 cents. 🙂
Thre is so much information I wish I had known why my first was born. Luckily my second son is intact, just as he should be. I hope this information helps other mothers see the truth before they have to amke that kind of choice. Thank you for putting it out there.
Just another thought I had:
I don’t think that God would have told the Israelites to do something that would have limited their ability to enjoy sex, or would have been bad for them in the long run. It’s not like he would be “yeah, you guys are my chosen people, but I want the heathens to have better sex lives and be more capable humans.”
AJ – You raise a good point. That was the one thought that kept me undecided for a long time on the topic of circumcision.
But you have to remember this:
This is the same God who allowed His chosen people to be taken captive by hostile nations time and time again. This is the same God who allowed all the first born sons of His chosen people to be taken from their mothers and murdered – twice. This is the same God who allowed His chosen people to wander through the dessert for forty years with only bread to eat.
Sometimes He overlooked the personal comfort of His people in order to provide a more teachable atmosphere.
I’ve stayed out of the conversation, because I don’t have an opinion on circumcision right now, though I appreciate the information.
Here, though, Beth, I agree with AJ. The things you listed, are consequences that God allowed to happen, due to the Israelites (or someone else’s) sin. God doesn’t command his people to do harmful things. Inconvenient things, perhaps, but nothing unwise or detrimental. None of the other Laws were detrimental- the sillier ones (as we see them today) had to do with either hygiene & health (rules about mold & mildew, special washing, what to eat/not eat, etc) or to set them apart as a holy people (what to wear, don’t cut sideburns, etc). I’d say Circumcision falls into both of the categories- but not harmful. That said, the Law was fulfilled and we are no longer under the Law- but that doesn’t mean the law was a bad idea in the first place.
<p><p>I would like to clarify that I do not see circumcision as a long-term harmful procedure. But I also do not see it as a long-term beneficial procedure. I see it as a cosmetic procedure that allows the man to skip one small step in his daily hygiene routine. I see potential benefits for keeping him intact. I see potential disasters if circumcision does take place.</p><br />
<p>In the here and now, I definitely saw more pain in the immediate ramifications of circumcising my son. But in the long-term, no real damage is likely to be done either way. </p><br />
<p>But the need for circumcision has passed. Whether it was commanded by God to set them apart (maybe it was more common in those days see a naked Jewish man?), or just to remind them of the promise He made (they would have a visual reminder everytime they bathed themselves), or for hygienic reasons. </p><br />
<p>We have showers, and we have the cross. We really don’t need circumcision any longer.</p></p>
Just about seeing a naked Jewish man, Genesis 9 leads me to believe that it wasn’t a regular occurrence.
No, we don’t need circumcision, but I don’t think you can make a strong stance one way or another that it is decidedly bad or decidedly good.
I think I proved my point though, which was that circumcision is unnecessary. And for my family, we didn’t want to strap our baby to a board and subject him to the knife in his first few hours after leaving the safety of the womb for a procedure that my research had deemed unnecessary.
Thank you for your views, though, AJ. I’m glad there was a guy out there to speak up for the other side of the argument.
I haven’t had time to read all the comments so sorry if I repeated anything.
I can’t believe more people are not circumcising! I guess, as a nurse, I have taken care of so many elderly uncirc men and they DO NOT clean there. IT is wicked nasty. One of the reasons I did circ was because I know men aren’t as clean, especially as they get older. Retracting to clean their foreskin? What is that? Never took care of a patient who did that.
It is a fact that uncirc men have a 10% chance of UTIs. Both the friends I have that haven’t circ their boys saw them have UTIs before the were 3. HPV and HIV are harbored in foreskins. The UN is trying to convince men to be circumcised in African countries, now. Cervical cancer in Jewish communiites is almost non-existant. I think one of the reasons God had circumcision used as a covenant sign is because it also protected women’s health.
I get very upset when people call circ barbaric or insinuate that it is. If it is than so is God.
Anyway, I feel so strongly about it that I asked my husband on our third date if he was circumcised. I wouldn’t have continued dating him if he wasn’t. That might sound a bit extreme, but it is cleaner and healthier for women. I circ my boys for their future wives.
Uncirc men do have a little more sensitivity in their penis, but it isn’t enought to write home about. It is up around the base, not the tip where most sexual pleasure is felt.
The reason Cananda doesn’t pay for them is because they do deem them medically unnecessary, but they are probably looking to cut costs because they have universal healthcare.
I probably offended a lot of people, but I am offended that more people aren’t doing it. I really feel bad for my daughters (if I have any). Only 53% of the population circumcise today. In a time of promiscuity and deadly STDs, you would think that stat would be higher.
BTW, my second born slept through his circ. My first one cried for a few minutes and then he went back to sleep. What did Hamlet say… “you must be cruel to be kind.” I think there is some truth in there.
Thanks boys62ddb5
Although we opted to have both our boys circumcised, I can completely understand why you would choose not to. Many of the arguments for why to have your son circumcised have either been disproven or lost much of their weight. As more and more parents are choosing not to circumcise their sons, the whole looking like other boys argument is just not as valid either. There is a really great debate about circumcision at http://www.opposingviews.com/questions/should-boys-be-circumcised Experts from both sides weigh in, and the National Organization of Circumcision Information takes the anti-circumcision side, making some similar points you did here.
Hi,
Thanks for the posting.
To those who say God wouldn’t have the Israelites do something to reduce sexual pleasure;…WHY do you believe that? One of the most famous rabbis ever Moses Maimenodes believed circumcision was introduced specifically to reduce pleasure, and further that Jewish girls who slept with intact guys would be forever “ruined” and never want to sleep with another cut Jew.
But really, by basing a decision about a permanent irreversible amputation on the Bible, you are dis-respecting the child’s religious freedom, aren’t you? Even if he remains a Jew, he might be of the mind (like many) that the more recent “Thou shall not steal” has abrogated the covenant of the 8th day. (See http://CutTheFilm.com). And of course Christians are specifically chided that circumcision is not part of Christianity. Official Catholic policy even forbids it.
But as an atheist and a man, I can only say foreskin feels REALLY good! How DARE you assume I am unable to clean myself as a well as a girl can (she has a lot more folds and crevices to deal with, no?).
With 95% of the non-Muslim world NOT circumcising, HOW DARE you assume I won’t want to be normal ? ! ? !
HIS body HIS decision.
It is probably true that most middle class Caucasian Americans are still snipping off the dirty old foreskins of their baby boys. It could be that a lot of babies are leaving the maternity ward uncut because their parents are immigrants, or simply can’t afford it.
But uncut is on the rise among highly educated and progressive parents, starting with California. I bet infant circumcision is way down among children of college professors, research scientists, and clergymen. Among parents who have spent time in European saunas, locker rooms, and nude beaches. Among the children of mothers who had serious sexual experience with foreigners while they were in college.
It still happens that an intact boy is made fun of in Scout camp or the school locker room. There are still American young women who, when discovering that a date comes with foreskin, have hearts that leap into their mouths with disgust. But these are not reasons to cut males, but to educate children about this tender masculine subject.
**********
Jeremy:
“For the most part, guys are fine with whatever choice their parents made”
True
” the only complaints I have ever heard come from uncircumsized guys”
Wrong; some cut guys complain loudly.
“circumcision is no big deal for a baby; it is painful for a little while, and that is it.”
We cannot know that because baby boys cannot talk.
“For an adult male, on the other hand, it is absolutely horrendous;”
I doubt this; it is done under anesthesia, you take
Darvon for 3 weeks during the recovery, and best of all,
you understand what was done to you. Genesis 34 is about a time long before pain management.
“Sure, nothing is wrong at the time, but it would be a relatively minor procedure to eliminate the risk of something going wrong in the future”
This contravenes medical ethics.
“And I see circumcision basically the same way — it is very minor…”
That is an assumption, not a fact.
” and it makes life a tad easier in ways,”
And perhaps makes sex less fulfilling for one or both partners.
***********************
Zan:
“as a nurse, I have taken care of so many elderly uncirc men and they DO NOT clean there. IT is wicked nasty. One of the reasons I did circ was because I know men aren’t as clean, especially as they get older. Retracting to clean their foreskin? What is that? Never took care of a patient who did that.”
Cleaning between his buttocks is just as necessary and even more foul. But no rest home orderly complains about that on the net. Hmmm….
“It is a fact that uncirc men have a 10% chance of UTIs.”
It’s 1%, with questionable data collection. Baby girls have a 2-3% rate, and nobody does anything about that.
“HPV and HIV are harbored in foreskins.”
Only by men who misuse their penises.
“The UN is trying to convince men to be circumcised in African countries, now. Cervical cancer in Jewish communiites is almost non-existant.”
Cervical cancer is also rare in uncut Scandinavia. The African clinical trials were conducted in ways that undermined their validity. Even taken at face value, their outcomes have no bearing on whether American boys should be cut.
“I get very upset when people call circ barbaric or insinuate that it is. If it is than so is God.”
But the God of revealed religion most definitely can be cruel…
“Anyway, I feel so strongly about it that I asked my husband on our third date if he was circumcised. I wouldn’t have continued dating him if he wasn’t.”
American mothers fear their sons will date women like yourself, and that fear contributes materially to the circ rate in the USA.
” That might sound a bit extreme, but it is cleaner and healthier for women. I circ my boys for their future wives.”
I go with what Alex Comfort wrote 35 years ago: ‘Wash, don’t cut.’
“Uncirc men do have a little more sensitivity in their penis, but it isn’t enought to write home about.”
Only men cut as adults can really speak to this.
“It is up around the base, not the tip where most sexual pleasure is felt.”
Wrong. Neither the glans nor the base, but the frenulum, the ridged band, and the corona.
Sorry for posting so late, but I just discovered this thread…
I’m the cut father of an intact teenage son, and I’m incredibly angry that it was done to me. However, both of my parents offered sincere apologies, which went a long way toward my own healing. I don’t blame them; it was the 1960s and they were working with the information available at the time. But we know so much more now (like the true function of the foreskin, and its sensory/sensual and immunological functions). There’s simply no reason to do it anymore.
Contrary to the results of the African studies, Langerhans cells in the foreskin (both male and female) have been shown to effectively break down HIV and other viral cells before they can enter the lymphatic system. By cutting away the tissue with the greatest concentration of Langerhans cells, you are removing the body’s first line of defense against STDs. And safe sex practices should still be used, period.
The male prepuce also contains over 20,000 specialized fine-touch nerve receptors (Meissner’s corpuscles), amounting to the 4 to 5 most sensitive areas of the penis. The most sensitive area on a circumcised penis is the ventral scar area. The tissue removed in circumcision is orders of magnitude more sensitive.
In a reversal of the old “son should look like his father” argument, I am restoring. At less than a year, I have already seen amazing improvement in coverage and gains in sensitivity. Sex with my partner is much closer and more intimate. I will never get back what was taken from me at birth, but at least I can approximate the look and feel intended by nature.
Intact is the default, and the odds of ever needing surgical intervention on the prepuce is less than 1%. There is no medical reason for infant circumcision. Any suggestions of prophylaxis are weak and start a slippery slope of questions: females get far more UTIs and four times the genital cancers that males do – do we go back to trimming clitoral hoods and labia like we did up through the ’60s? Do we remove breast tissue at birth? Breast cancer in both sexes is far more common than penile cancer.
If the foreskin was not beneficial in some way (however poorly understood), it would have been removed through natural selection. To perform amputative surgery on a non-consenting minor and remove the most sensitive part of his genitals is an ethical nightmare at best.
This is a cultural custom that belongs in the trash bin of human history, along with animal sacrifice.
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It’s easy. Let an adult male decide if he wants to be circumcised. It is HIS personal choice and NOT his parents unless it is a MEDICAL choice.
I frankly do not admire anyone who talks about how they would circumcise and not give their child the chance to decide what his body will have or not have. That’s not brave at all. It’s sad.
*This is a cultural custom that belongs in the trash bin of human history, along with animal sacrifice.*
AMEN!
As a 20 year old intact boy my mother is from europe . I just spent a year there attending university.
I was the on the swim team were both men and women practice together nude including the instructors .
All those great looking girls on the team never saw a boy without a prepuce and i thank my mother i was not the first!
I realize this is old, but you know what else protects against promiscuity and deadly STDs? Abstinence until marriage. I’m both a Christian (unmarried and very committed to pre-marital abstinence) and a Canadian medical student. The reason that provincial government health insurance doesn’t pay for them here has nothing to do with keeping costs down and everything to do with the fact that the Canadian Pediatric Association recommends that neonatal circumcision not be routinely performed based on the scientific evidence available.
the HIV prevention potential of circumcision is well study and established.
http://www.who.int/hiv/topics/malecircumcision/en/index.html
It’s your child it’s your choice. Religion sometimes brings us non modern practices that may not be healthy.