I’ve heard that term for the first time during this election process. Â And, knowing that they are using it as a euphemism for infanticide, I get angrier every time I hear it.
Yes, you have the right to your reproductive system. Â By all means. Â Take the pill. Â Insert IUDs. Â Remove the whole durn uterus. Â But once another life inhabits that space, your “right to reproduce” is trumped by his right to LIVE.
“Oh, but I OWN my body. Â I can do whatever I want with it, and anything else in it.”
And my landlord owns my duplex. Â I’d like to see her use that logic after murdering ME.
“How can you be sure when life begins, anyway? Â Is it conception? Â The first heartbeat? Â The first breath of air?”
I believe without a doubt that anything with a heartbeat is alive. Â So, yes, there is a gray area before then when we can’t be sure. Â But I’d rather err on the side of life, instead of mistakenly killing a baby and then having to report to my Maker why I destroyed His creation. Â So I believe life begins at conception.
“So are you going to be a “one-issue” voter, then?”
Anyone who can fool himself into thinking that shoving a pair of scissors into a newly birthed infant’s head is NOT murder is too much of a fool to be my president.
There. Â I’m going to go calm myself down now. Â Thanks for listening.
Â
I’m pro-guns. Guns don’t kill people, people kill people, and they use whatever implements at their disposal–whether knives or guns or bombs or their bare hands. Guns do not a murder make; they are useful for many other things, and the right to bear arms is important–and constitutional.
Who is saying that it’s okay to kill in war or kill adults in gas chambers? Not me, and not all of the politicians. In fact, I don’t know of any that LIKE war or WANT to kill people. Just some that consider it more necessary than other people, and consider death to be an acceptable punishment for causing death. You know, like the Bible. Also, sometimes war is necessary to prevent a greater evil and more deaths, but that’s really not the same as abortion, now, is it?
It *is* kind of amusing you bring this up, however, since the scourge of abortion has been compared to the holocaust, and the pro-choice agenda has given–sometimes verbatim–the same rhetoric as to why it’s ok to end someone’s life. The parallels are actually rather chilling.
p.s. I just realized that last paragraph seemed like it came out of left field. Sorry! The gas chamber comment is what sparked that.
Anyways, at this point you seem to be grasping at straws and veering off of the main point. I mean really, as I said before, reactionary emotionalism does not a debate make, nor is it possible to understand the other side if listening isn’t occurring. It also isn’t profitable to engage in discussions where every rabbit trail is followed or jumped upon, and irrelevant discussion points are brought up. When a discussion begins to degrade that direction, it’s really just best to agree to disagree. And, as I said, all of the points brought up so far have been nearly endlessly addressed by people far more intelligent than I–though it is interesting that the pro-choice agenda doesn’t really seem to have any new material nor ears to hear these solutions. It’s good to know little has changed (I’ve been out of the pro-life political scene for quite awhile), although saddening at the same time. Still, the answers are out there, if you seek them with an open heart and mind. The Bible is a good place to start. God happens to be rather pro-life, and very firm on where the blame lies when innocents are slaughtered and His people do nothing.
Oh, and by the way, I am not a Republican, although I supported Ron Paul in the primaries, and will vote for McCain in the general election. But they are definitely not “my party”.
It is not grasping at straws to compare one death to another. You just seem to justify one and not the other as does the conservative party. I find it amusing that they pick and choose. It makes no sense and weakens the pro-life position when ALL life is not valued the same.
The bombs we dropped on Japan for instance…I am sure MANY innocent babies were killed…the unborn included. These people were literally insinerated. Those that lived suffered for years because of the radiation.
I don’t think their deaths were acceptable. I don’t think deaths in Iraq are acceptable. But many conservatives including McCain are very pro-war. McCain mentioned at the RNC how he likes to pick fights for the fun of it. 😉
It sounds as though only life under AMERICAN political protection is valued and that certianly isn’t Biblical.
Yes, I think we must agree to disagree.
You don’t think that accepting a few deaths to prevent millions is acceptable? You’d rather have millions?
All life is precious, and every person has a right to life. However, in the Bible, when someone took away someone’s right to live, they also forfeited THEIR right to live. War is terrible, awful. In a perfect world, there would be no need for war. But unfortunately, this world is far from perfect, and there are those that would see every one of us incinerated simply for being different. Self-defense is not the same thing as premeditated murder.
Now, what I don’t get is, you are against war and capital punishment, yet you believe that women should have a choice whether or not they can murder their unborn. That’s hardly a cohesive statement on life either, is it? I would call that far from consistent, in fact. Why are only born people to be protected, why must criminals be protected even as they seek to end more lives, yet helpless innocent unborn children are not to be for convenience sake? That doesn’t make sense.
For the record, I’m not a fan of capital punishment. In fact, I oppose it. And while I believe that we had good intentions going into the Iraq war, and I applaud how few deaths have occurred and how cleanly this war has been fought–on our end–for the most part, I support pulling out as soon as it is viable. I think we accomplished some good things, but unfortunately bad things as well. And it’s time to let them be and focus on our national security, and our own borders rather than spending time and effort chasing evil men who are protected and hidden. Instead of trying to find them, why don’t we just catch them in the act? War is at times a necessary evil, and punishing a few evil men to protect the world is acceptable to ME. God is a god of war as much as He is of grace. We must remember that as well. But personally, I think that we need to end the war on their soil and fortify our borders instead.
But then again, this is yet another strawman argument, and yet another rabbit trail that is irrelevant to the ultimate point. And that point is abortion, not capital punishment or foreign wars. Those are entirely different subjects that deserve their own consideration. Lumping them together is like trying to lump together math and music. Sure, they are both school subjects, and they are related, but they are also very different and one can view them differently and not compromising their view of life. I could not even begin to explain my views on them without starting a whole ‘nother novel and discussion, nor attempt to provide you with satisfying information from another point of view.
So yes. We must agree to disagree, because it appears we disagree on quite a bit, not just abortion.
Tiffany, would you step in if you saw a mother mercilessly beating her child in the Wal-Mart parking lot?
Do you also, then, think that we should eliminate all judges and the judicial system as a whole? Unwrite laws? Burn the constitution? Live our own lives and let others live theirs, and if they make the choice to beat, steal, rape, plunder, then that’s their right and they will be held accountable to God? Is that the kind of world you want to live in?
I have a hard time that your view on “judging” the sin of abortion is the same as “judging” other sins that also effect innocent lives.
Mrs B – that verse in Exodus sounded, at first, to me, that “serious injury” was to be applied to the unborn child. Then I read the footnote and was unsure all over again.
Then I continued reading the rest of the chapter and saw a section on murderous bulls that treated the death of a servant with the payment of 30 shekels, while a free person being murdered by a bull could result in the owner’s death. Which makes it obvious that lives were valued differently in Old Testament days.
Perhaps the murder of an unborn child back then wasn’t seen as vicious as it is today, after all, they had no ultrasounds to confirm just how early a baby was completely formed with a beating heart. And, also note that the offender in that verse didn’t pull the baby out by the leg and stick a pair of scissors in its head. It was a fight between two men and the woman was in the wrong place at the wrong time. So maybe motives were also taken into account. And hey, look, Mrs. Taft already covered this. Can you tell I’m reading the comments as I respond to them? 😛
Tree, I’m with you! It hurts my head! But prayer for wisdom is definitely a place to start.
And to all, a GOOD NIGHT: The real issue of this post seems to keep being lost. The issue is the protection of innocent lives. Although a discussion on protecting the lives serial killers and judging whether war kills more lives than it saves would also make a great debate, that is not the issue. Those debates involve choosing one life over another. Perhaps more poignantly, they involve making a choice that saves the most amount of lives.
This debate involves choosing life – life that doesn’t threaten yours. It may involve life that makes yours inconvenient for a time, whether that be 9 months or 18 years, yet convenience has never been an excuse to kill.
This debate involves seeing the unborn child as a living person with rights.
Just like the rights of the child in the Wal-Mart parking lot.
And my battery’s dying, so good night!
Links for consideration:
– Be careful what you compare to the Holocaust
– A “consistent ethic of life” – this seems to be what Tiffany was trying to get at, and is where I stand for the most part, due to it being the logical conclusion to being “for Life”
I remember writing a ProLife paper for a law or ethics class (not sure which) back in college. Actually, now that I think about it, it was ethics. My professor didn’t think I followed directions because I didn’t quote anything from the Pope or other religious scholar.
Instead, I based my argument on genetics and the basic biological definition of “Life”.
1. Using gentic materials is a legal, court-admissable, means of identifying unique individuals
2. An embryo has genetic markers different from their mother.
3. An embryo has human DNA.
4. An embryo is made up of living cells which eat, reproduce, etc. and therefore qualifies as “life”, albeit parasitic life
5. So as we all agree that according to widely accepted definitions an embryo is alive, contains *unique* and human DNA, and that we legally recognise DNA as a means of identifying unique individuals….embryos are people and therefor to both legalize abortion and criminalize the willful and planned ending of human life is hypocritical.
“Do you also, then, think that we should eliminate all judges and the judicial system as a whole? Unwrite laws? Burn the constitution? Live our own lives and let others live theirs, and if they make the choice to beat, steal, rape, plunder, then that’s their right and they will be held accountable to God? Is that the kind of world you want to live in?”
Now your just throwing weird stuff out there. Those things are against the law…abortion is not. I think making it against the law opens up a Pandora’s box that no one wants to touch with reasonable arguments. You say you want to protect life and force “Jane” to have her baby but are you going to pay for Jane’s pre-natal care and birth, her delivery, the adoption if there is one, the foster care after the baby does get any adoptive parents because it has a club foot, medical bills, etc….and that is just ONE child? Will you pay for the older children in foster care that were unwanted since birth that got beaten by their parents who resented them? There are other issues besides life…like quality of life and money to take care of these unwanted children when they enter the system at birth or when they are taken away after being abused.
Republicans already blocked a children’s healthcare bill last year. They want to make everyone have babies they don’t want and and NOT pay for them. Sorry but that is WRONG. Our foster care/adoption system is a nightmare already.
I am content with my own personal decision on this matter…not to abort. I am also content to vote for people who actually do consider ALL the ramifications in this matter and who don’t believe a woman loses all her rights when she becomes and incubation chamber.
I also know people who have aborted. They are/were good people. It is not my business to judge them.
Contrary to your last comment, I wasn’t just “throwing weird stuff out there.” I was referring to your repeated comments that we shouldn’t judge others, even when we know what they are doing is wrong and harmful to others.
You admit you think abortion is wrong. You admit the unborn child is alive. Yet you do not think it is your place to try to stop the people that would kill them.
And I am merely trying to point out your hypocrisy. Judging others is just fine when they steal your car or beat your husband. You have no problem putting a woman in jail if she murders her 3 month old baby, I assume. So your repeated pleas that I not judge those who would kill a baby just because they were three -12 months younger than that fall on deaf ears.
Our judicial system is in place to protect the innocent. Unless you are willing to get rid of it entirely, then you are a hypocrite for not wanting unborn children to receive the same judicial care and protection that you do in this country.
Once again. The things you mentioned are against the law. Abortion isn’t. So that is not indicative of trying to abolish the judicial system. More like keeping things as is.
I might pursue action against people that do things to me or my own (the Bible supports this – eye for eye type thing) but I don’t judge other people for other crimes. I won’t even sit on a jury…I refuse. I may have opinions about them but I won’t decide their fate.
Our judicial system is not a place to protect the innocent. It is a place to punish criminals and abortion is not criminal activity according to the law. So it is kind of a non issue for me. I don’t think either party will end up taking steps to abolish it for all the reasons I mentioned above. People are long on talk and short on action…aka money and 18 years of their life to put were their mouth is. Call me selfish but I don’t want my taxes to double to pay for other people’s children…maybe you have the money to throw away.
I will vote for the party that actually attempts to take care of the children (wanted and unwanted) we already have.
honestly,
I don’t see why this is such a hot topic. Once you remove the emotion and get down to facts, embryos and fetuses *SHOULD* be defined as people, because of the scientific and legal definitions we already accept and beleive as a society.
I know I’m Catholic and all, but my brain is all scientist. And it’s way too easy to make an airtight argument against abortion so long as we criminalize euthanization, murder, and so on. The logic behind keeping those illegal follows all too well for keeping abortion illegal (except in exceedingly rare cases where continuing the pregnancy would kill both the mother and child–where it’d fall under self-defense).
Arguing for “reproductive rights” seems to me entirely too tainted with emotion rather than fact. Yes, we’d all like to be free to live our lives without unpleasantness. However, we live in a world with other people, and our rights end where theirs begins.
And with the knowledge that we have I cannot understand why it’s still argued that the unborn are not people, but rather are given the legal standing of a case of tapeworm.
Tiffany, again you’re changing the subject from what Beth originally posted. Whether or not abortion is the law is not currently under debate. Of course it’s the law, but that doesn’t make it right.
Beth’s original point is that abortion (killing an innocent baby – so far no one has made the argument that the unborn child/fetus is not a living, human baby) is morally indefensible. Her analogy about the landlord is a solid one – yes, the baby is inside the mother, and yes, the baby’s presence may represent an inconvenience to the mother, but that still doesn’t give ANYone the right to kill that baby. Obviously, Beth’s original post didn’t refer to those rare cases where the baby’s presence does represent a true medical threat to the mother’s life, so those arguments are red herrings. Incidentally, almost all pro-lifers support the notion of intervention when the mother’s life truly is in danger.
In response to your rabbit trail about abortion being the law, though, there was a time when it was the law of the land that black people were not in fact people; that they could be bought, sold, and traded like property; that their owners could beat them and even kill them without impunity. That law was WRONG.
Yes, I realize that the discussion is not about whether abortion is legal or not but Beth was one that stated my support for keeping abortion legal could be likened to trying to dismantle the whole judicial system…I was pointing out that this is not a logical argument as clearly I am not trying to throw out all laws against murder…I am not trying to throw out any in fact. That was my point.
I guess where this issue concerned I think I will allow women to choose if they want to be moral. It is a choice God gave us and it is currently supported by law. It is against the law at a later date then they will need to follow the law…I won’t be casting my vote to take their choices away though. I think we have TONS of other important issues in the world to deal with that affect the lives and quality of life of people already here. So I guess more than a right or wrong issue it is a non-issue for me.
For the record I am for euthanasia to. Having had cancer already I should be able to decide if I want to die in a peaceful drug induced haze or painful agony. If you have never had to face that situtation then I am not much interested in your moral opinions.
I just don’t understand your rationale, Tiffany.
“I guess where this issue concerned I think I will allow women to choose if they want to be moral. It is a choice God gave us and it is currently supported by law”
If it were legal to kill children once born, would you then also support that right? Or would you fight, tooth and nail, to get a law passed that protected those innocent children?
Tiffany,
You say that you’re for people chosing their own morality, but not for getting rid of our legal system.
But, the problem is, that to allow everyone to chose their own path without Federal mandated guidelines would be to remove our government and allow for a state of Anarchy. So many of our laws exist to impose morality. We have criminalized theft, rape, murder… And I don’t think too many would argue that those should be repealed.
So the something being a moral issue is not a good argument against regulation.
As for euthanization, I’m actually for that under certain circumstances (for example, someone in pain being given a dose of painkiller that happens to be lethal, but is also the necessary dose to bring about comfort).
The way I see it is, I will continue to write letters, pray, etc. in hopes of Roe vs. Wade being overturned, as my conscience says it’s wrong for abortions to continue and I should work against it. However I ultimately am responsible for myself and my actions and it is in God’s hands what others have done.
“However I ultimately am responsible for myself and my actions and it is in God’s hands what others have done.”
I agree. That is my stance as well. I just empathize with the other side of the of the issue as well…I have known people who aborted and darn if they didn’t have some compelling reasons for doing what they did. I am glad I wasn’t in a position to make that decision for them.
Beth, the other issue you brought up is a non-issue…those laws already exist and they aren’t really the same anyway because they involve one person’s rights…not two.
Tiffany,
Please, take “illegal” and “legal” out of the equation. Morally, should one have the right to kill the other? We, the people, are in charge of helping to make the laws. So please stop taking the cop-out. You’re letting the law decide your morality.
And as for abortion involving two rights, again, yes – the right of the baby to live and the right of the mother to kill said baby.
Morally (please, not legally) should a woman have that right?
Once we can come to THAT conclusion, then we can make the law!
“And as for abortion involving two rights, again, yes – the right of the baby to live and the right of the mother to kill said baby.”
No, the right of a baby and the right of the mother to NOT use her body to host that baby. I DO think women have a right to not be pregnant if they don’t want to be…WHATEVER that entails. They can saddle up that pony and ride it.
“Morally (please, not legally) should a woman have that right?”
I don’t want to decide for other people what they should and should not do in this scenario because it is they…not me… who will have to live with the consequences either way. I only hope for what they will and will not do.
Ladies, I haven’t had time to read all the comments posted here. But I think it’s sad that we are all supposedly Christians, yet this discussion seems to be getting ugly, involving name calling, etc. I know everyone is passionate about the issue, but just because we’re on the internet doesn’t mean we should be ruder than we would be in real life.
I did want to say one or two things about the Exodus passage I linked to earlier:
1. Premature birth/ miscarriage: One very standard principle of hermeneutics is to consider what the passage would have meant to the original audience. The idea that premature babies often live is a very modern, western one. I’m a mom of a premature baby & saw a lot of them during his long hospital stay. It surely seems a gross overstatement to say that a premature baby would be LIKELY to live in a pre-technological society.
2. Violence against a pregnant woman that leads to an early birth is likely caused by placental abruption (this is still true today.) I’m not a doctor, but my understanding is that placental abruption = dead baby, and without prompt medical attention can very easily mean dead mommy as well. So, again, I don’t think this passage is talking about the baby being born alive- it’s the mom whose injuries or death have to be compensated for.
3. I certainly understand that this passage is not referring to a deliberate act of violence against an unborn child.
4. I wanted to share something that one of the pastors at my church shared about these “eye for an eye” laws. In the time & place that these laws were set up, it was likely that one single killing or act of violence would set up a chain of revenge with no end. So the “eye for an eye” stuff was really very moderate at the time- instead of killing the guy who poked out your eye & burning down his house & killing his whole family, then his other relatives coming & killing you & all the families continuing to retaliate forever, there was one single act of retribution and the crime was atoned for. Also, in that society, women, slaves, and babies really had almost no value at all. I think it’s very encouraging to see that one of the first things God did was to assign these things SOME value, even if their value seems lower than that of men.
Just as God dealt graciously with the Israelites, and just as He deals gently with each of us despite our many failures and mistakes, I hope we can deal graciously with one another even in our disagreements.
tiffany,
I think you’re missing the point.
As someone who thinks something is morally wrong, it’s my responsibility to try and keep it from happening. Therefore, it would be IMMORAL to just sit back and say “ah, to each his own”. You have to answer for yourself and your actions…to include those that may impact the actions of another.
To do nothing is to imply consent. And I do not concede.
God not only judges us based on what we have done, but what we have failed to do.
…as far of the rights of two people.
There are those of us who beleive the right of the child to exist trumps the right of the mother to choose whether or not to be pregnant.
becoming mommy,
In my lifetime I have never seen a ballot that said: Aborion Yes or NO and ignored it. So I did not imply consent.
Are you saying that we are obligated to vote ONLY for certain candidate based upon this sole issue and ignore others or we are consenting to immorality???
If a right is not applied in practice but only accepted in theory than it is not a right…hence a woman has no right to NOT be pregnant by that logic.
“No, the right of a baby and the right of the mother to NOT use her body to host that baby.”
Um…wow. I guess a woman’s right to not use her body to host a baby is more important than the right of that baby to live? That’s…a pretty scary ethos that leads down some rather Hitlerian paths.
The mother forfeits that right when she chooses to engage in conceiving acts to become pregnant. Don’t want a baby? Don’t have sex. Sure, use birth control. Use protection. Get a hysterectomy. Whatever. But sex does equal babies, both realistically and biologically. The only way to prevent it is to NOT HAVE IT. Otherwise, a woman needs to accept that her choice might have consequences, and she needs to take responsibility for her choices. The reality of life is that what goes up must come down, actions have reactions, and every choice we make has positive and negative consequences. Pregnancy is the natural and expected outcome of sex. It’s what sex was designed for, on a biological level. Why in the world do people think that it’s ok to do whatever you want, no matter what the consequences are? What a scary thought.
And please don’t bring up the rape argument–the probability of conception after rape is so statistically low it’s almost an anomaly, and does not account for the majority of abortions. Furthermore, babies are blessings, and instead of rejecting the soothing gift God sends to a victim, we shouldn’t create another victim and perpetuate the wrongs by violating another person’s rights.
Look, the cold hard fact of the matter is, if life is precious, then it is precious, and 9 months and some extra body fat is not such an inconvenience that we may choose not to “host” a little life. You know, babies actually still need hosts after they are born. They actually cannot survive without someone caring for them constantly, and are quite helpless for a long time. But it would be morally wrong for a woman to wake up one day and say “Gee, I’m tired of hosting this pooping, crying, waking-me-up little parasite. I think I’ll just stop caring for it” and either kill it or allow it to die. If a woman becomes pregnant and does not want to keep her baby, she should put it up for adoption, not murder it.
Life trumps choice. Always. Life trumps getting fat and having hemorrhoids and morning sickness. Always. Life trumps difficult emotional circumstances and mental anguish. Always. And life most especially trumps personal preferences and convenience–always. If you don’t want the reaction, don’t initiate the action. Plain and simple.
The reason, by the way, that abortion is a legal and moral issue isn’t because we Christians have found something to dance upon. It is legal and moral because the government made it so. Abortion is a relatively new law on a centuries old taboo. The government MADE it a debate point, and MADE it legal. So the only way to make it UN legal is to…make it un legal. We’re not just making stuff up out of thin air for fun.
Tiffany,
A person’s rights end where another’s begin. That’s just the way it goes. And, I do beleive that there is a prioritization of rights, much in the same order they were listed: Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Life is first.
And no, I do not see the world quite that black and white. Which is why I am neither Republican nor Democrat.
What we can do, to fully address all the issues there are is to become involved politically to let our representation understand what we, the constituency, want from them. There’s everything from letter writing, to involvement in PACs, to demonstration (peaceful, of course), to education. We have so many options and opportunities afforded us…
…and I do beleive I have a right to not be pregnant. I don’t confuse the abortion issue with the birth control issue.
If conception never happens, and therefore there is not another persons rights at stake…no harm, no foul.
Mrs. B: Points 1 and 2 are presumption, but even if they are correct, it doesn’t take away the fact that a baby and pregnancy *was* given value, and that the crime was not one of intention-murder-but an accident of sorts. But I already addressed this–and much more–in earlier comments about it.
Point four is somewhat irrelevant, dont you think? I mean, the point of bringing up that passage surely wasn’t to say “Hey look, here’s what the old law said but really it was just there to prevent more stuff and we’re all under grace anyways!”? If the idea behind those laws was stopping a tide of revenge (which is logical, but also presumption), then it makes me wonder how much more babies and pregnancy was actually valued. Either way, if there is any relevance of that point to be had, it really just underscores that much more how “pro-life” God is. 🙂
I *am* very passionate about this, as are obviously many of the other ladies debating this, but I don’t really see much name calling or anger at all. I do see passions coming through, and perhaps some gentle rebukes, but I don’t see anything that is–at least obviously–catty toward any specific person. I see a lot of emotional rhetoric, and I’ve feared myself several times that this was going to spiral into an unloving smackdown, which is why I’ve taken breaks from this discussion ;). There’s just no reasoning with emotionalism, and no point. It’s unlikely I’m going to change someone’s mind on TEH INTERNETZ, but I can put forth my view logically and thoughtfully.
Through the course of this debate we have discovered many truths:
1.) The unborn child is its own person with its own right to live.
2.) Therefore, abortion is murder.
3.) Abortion is *gasp* legal.
4.) That still doesn’t make abortion morally right.
5.) The only way to make it illegal (or un-legal) is to stand up for those who cannot talk for themselves. (The same way we made slavery illegal!)
Tiffany, I understand you have friends who have had abortions, and you look at them and say, “But they’re good people!” And back, pre-civil war, you could look at a slave-owner and say, “But he’s a good person!” That didn’t make slavery right anymore than it makes abortion right.
If people back then had the same mentality you have now, then slavery would never have become illegal. People would have maintained that they had the right to have someone else make their dinner for them for free. Because their skin was black. It’s their right, and it’s not against the law.
But it was morally wrong.
And so they rewrote the law.
And just like slavery, abortion is morally wrong, and I will never cease my efforts to put into power whomever necessary to re-write the law.
You have the right to a free life, whether you be white, black, or only 6 gestational weeks old.
And if conception is against your will? Mom’s rights go away like she never had them in the first place?
I know of one woman personally who was as Ms. Taft would like to have us believe a “statistical anomaly”.
It seems to me like the critical issue, especially for a Christian, is at what point the soul is joined with the body. Of course Scripture does not directly answer this question, but I think it is easier to make the case that that first happens at birth than at any other time.
… but I will save that, for two reasons.
1. Not knowing for sure, it makes far more sense to err on the side of caution and not permit abortions.
2. As others have pointed out, whom we elect president will have very close to zero impact on abortion. It is an issue Republicans love to exploit because of its emotional power, but Republicans have been in control both of the presidency and Congress many times since Roe v. Wade, and nothing has changed. Let’s not fool ourselves into thinking this is a bigger political issue than it is.
If they had my mentality???
Sorry discussion over.
Jeremy-
First of all, I was wondering when you were going to enter this fray.
Second of all, Republicans *have* made strides, be them small ones, and Obama seeks to undo them all.
Namely, he seeks to make even partial birth abortion legal.
And, going back to the original point, anyone who can fool himself into thinking that’s not murder is too much of a fool to be my president.
Even by your own logic that baby would have a soul; they *birth* the child, then kill it.
Tiffany,
To clarify (if you’re still there), I meant the mentality of, “It’s legal, it must be morally right.” I wasn’t insulting your overall mental health or anything… you make it sound like I did!
Tiffany: I’m sure there are more women than just the one you have met who got pregnant as a product of rape. Myself, I can recall three that I have read about (all of them chose life btw). You misread what I said, and it’s not “what I’d have you believe”, there is another commenter who gave actual statistics on the matter :). Nevertheless, that one person you know and the three I know of and the others that exist do not comprise a statistical majority; far from it. 🙂
Jeremy: I actually agree that abortion is more of a politcal platform for Republicans than it is a moral stance. I think you are right. And despite having a pro-life president for 8 years, roe v. wade is not repealed. However, that doesn’t mean strides *have not* been made, or things attempted. In fact, his inadequacies and fallacies aside, Bush *did* do more for the pro-life agenda (particularly in his last term) than one such as us would expect. 😉
And it’s one thing for a cause to remain stagnant, and another thing for it to slide further into the muck. I’d rather keep the ground we have than lose any more ground, frankly. 🙂
I have been trying to keep up with this discussion, as this is a topic that both interests and confuses me.
I agree with everyone here that abortion is wrong. I used to wear the patches against it and wear the t-shirts saying it was murder.
But then my mom, a strong Christian woman, pointed something out to me: How, if my goal is to win people to Christ, am I ever supposed to appeal to someone who has had an abortion by wearing those things? How will they ever receive forgiveness from God if they think all Christians will condemn them?
So I will try to appeal to people on individual cases to not have abortions, to consider the risks they are taking for themselves (since it can hinder any post-abortion pregnancy attempts), and what the emotional effects could be.
But I do not think this issue should be as politicized as it is. I agree with Jeremy in that many Republicans love to bring up this issue as a talking point as a way to appeal to the Christian sector.
I don’t think Obama seeks to undo all of the strides that have been made. I don’t even know where that information is coming from. Many of his “voting records” mentioned here are twisted and distorted. He said in his speech last week that he does not wish to increase abortions – he wishes to lower the number of unwanted pregnancies, meaning stronger sex-education, more ways for women to avoid abortion through adoption, and more support for unwed mothers.
And it should definitely be noted that up until a short time ago, McCain claimed to be a strident pro-choice Republican. I know that Sarah Palin says she is pro-life, but so did Bush. And Roe v. Wade still stands, even though he “promised” to repeal it.
I don’t think women should have abortions. I think we should do everything we can to prevent them from happening. But I think voting based on this one issue is not the most intelligent act.
Well said, Alisse.
Obama’s views have been misrepresented in the comments here, but I’ve seen that as a side issue and not brought it up. It does annoy me when un-truths are repeated, though. Here, I have boring information to dissipate some misrepresentations.
Most of the misrepresentations stem from the fact Obama didn’t vote for the Born-Alive Act in Illinois (though he says he supports the nearly-identical federal version). In actuality,”Illinois law already provided that physicians must protect the life of a fetus when there is ‘a reasonable likelihood of sustained survival of the fetus outside the womb, with or without artificial support.'” “There are already laws in Illinois, which Obama has said he supports, that protect these children even when they are born as the result of an abortion. Illinois compiled statute 720 ILCS 510/6 states that physicians performing abortions when the fetus is viable must use the procedure most likely to preserve the fetus’ life; must be attended by another physician who can care for a born-alive infant; and must ‘exercise the same degree of professional skill, care and diligence to preserve the life and health of the child as would be required of a physician providing immediate medical care to a child born alive in the course of a pregnancy termination…’ Failure to do any of the above is considered a felony” (from Factcheck.org)
Basically, Obama has said repeatedly he wants to provide avenues to reduce the number of abortions without criminalizing it. And programs work better than laws, studies show, so he’s not totally off-base. Both pro-life and pro-choice people want to reduce the number of abortions; they just see different avenues to get to that goal.
Please, please make sure what you’re saying on TEH INTERWEBZ (or anywhere, for that matter) is true- there are enough lies floating around as it is. It’s an integrity issue. Cite data from reliable sources when you know it is true.
I agree with Alisse and Joanna. Abortions are horrible, but our goal should be reducing the number of abortions.
I think we should ask the candidates “How will you reduce the number of abortions?” instead of “Will you make abortions illegal?” since that is the real goal — to preserve life.
I also think that we need to include other issues into the pro-life movement such as spreading peace and preventing wars, helping with humanitarian efforts and working towards sustainable life styles to promote life for everyone around the world.
Must of the other major issues in this presidential campaign include elements of promoting life: the wars in the middle East, the environment, immigration, the economy and foreign policy. So, we should look at the candidates based on all the issues, not just one and vote on who we believe will preserve life and do the best for the country overall.
I just thought I’d throw my 2 cents in.
I had an abortion. I became pregnant as a result of sexual abuse at the age of 17. I’m not evangical, I don’t really practice any religion, but I was raised Catholic. It took me almost the whole first trimester to think things out. I couldn’t raise a reminder of what happened to me, I wanted to go to college and I was in no position to raise the child myself. So I looked into adoption. I was set on it. But the entire time, I was wasting away. I couldn’t eat, I couldn’t sleep, I was constantly on edge and under stress. By harboring this reminder, I could never get past my experience- not even for 9 short months. The doctor’s office asking about the father made me think about how many times would I have to make up some lie about how the dad is thrilled or put on a happy expentant mom face. Or even worse, the looks of shame- not that people would know automatically what happened, but that judgemental look that you would give any pregnant teenager that just couldn’t wait. The look that showed they thought I was a slut. I couldn’t handle it. While it wasn’t a case of “my life or yours” in the physical sense, it was in another sense. It was hard making the decision but not as hard as having to relive a nightmare every minute of every day. I am truly sorry and I am still all the more angry that two innocent people were harmed by one act, but if (God forbid) I had to do it over again, I would just make the same decision sooner.
Now I find myself pregnant again. However this child was created out of love and grows and will continue to grow in an atmosphere of love. And I could never think of giving this child up.
Also, from a political stand point there is too much balance in our government for that law to change either way, no matter who is president. Does anyone know what is entailed in Roe v. Wade? It’s not just one piece of paper that says “Abortion is legal. So there.” It also goes into protecting women from having there gynecological exams from being public property as well as a plethora of rules that protect us, not just as baby makers, but as women. How would you feel if your boss knew about that nasty yeast infection?
Ya’ll lost me a LONG time ago. I guess it’s for the better at least, I didn’t agree with most of it anyways.
It’s okay Tiff, I don’t know you……..but I did agree with everything you said.
Joanna:
Regarding his comment to planned parenthood that he plans to reverse partial birth abortion:
http://groups.google.com/group/talk.politics.misc/browse_thread/thread/e6204f3fdad05006
At one point I had a youtube video of this speech that included the questions at the end, that video seems to have been taken down. But I witnessed him saying those things myself, so there you have it.
Regarding his votes:
http://hotair.com/archives/2008/08/18/team-obama-acknowledges-infanticide-lie/
http://www.nysun.com/national/obama-facing-attacks-from-all-sides-over-abortion/84059/
Jill: I’m so sorry for your loss, on many levels. I appreciate your candor in telling your story.
But to anyone who may be reading these comments someday down the future, and are struggling perhaps with a situation similar to Jill’s, I’d like to let you know it doesn’t have to end up that way.
Feelings are a choice. And when our feelings aren’t aligned with reality, or we are allowing ourselves to hold other people’s opinions of us higher than the value of the life inside us, we tumble down a slippery slope that often affects the rest of our lives. For the mind can justify any action, and the Bible tells us that the heart is deceitful–just because you feel something, doesn’t make it true.
After all, how do you think the average Nazi got on in the holocaust? It’s so very untrue that every common foot soldier was a raving lunatic monster, yet they participated–willingly and unwillingly–in one of the greatest atrocities in any war. It didn’t happen because it was the right thing, it happened because they chose to dehumanize the Jews and justify their actions. Whether they did so because they were forced to–peer pressure–or because of internal moral struggle, the reality remains that they murdered and maimed a race all in the name of eugenics. Many soldiers of that era have passed, but before they did, related these struggles. Eventually, they realized that those who they did not see as human beings, were, and that knowledge was a terrible grief and burden, as they realized the full extent of their participation.
So if you are in a situation that is less-than-ideal regarding a pregnancy, please know three things: 1. Pretending or dehumanizing your baby will not diminish the reality of its death, and what that means on a basic human level; 2. Other people have been through it before, and have come out the other side choosing life and rejoicing because two wrongs don’t make a right; and 3. There is help, and there is hope.
If you cannot place yourself aside for 9 months and face the reality of your situation, please, please seek help. Many times crisis pregnancy centers employ counselors who can walk you through this difficult time and help you see both the reality of the situation and the positives. Your mental state and your reputation are not more important than someone else’s life; after all, if you knew someone who bullied you every day, passing lies about you to others and constantly tearing you down, that would hardly justify his or her murder, would it?
Truly, it takes a strong and brave and moral person to do the right thing in the face of great injustice. But I believe that we are all capable of strong, brave, and moral acts. And if it is something you cannot do alone, know that there are those who can help you do it. From traditional counselors to crisis pregnancy volunteers to others who have done the very same thing–even if they chose poorly, and now regret it–you can build yourself the network of support and compassion to get through it. You CAN do it.
I know this, because I was there myself once. I want to share this in case it helps anyone else, but it is something I do not often share.
When I was 19, on the outside I had the perfect life. I was the oldest daughter to a pastor and well-respected business man, my mother was a well-respected stay-at-home mom, I graduated early from high school and attained an AAS at the same time, and was on to nursing school. Inside, I was struggling with the recent death of my Grandpa, who had lived with us since I was four and was like a daddy to me. So when I met “Isaac”, he seemed to be a salve to my wound. He was drop dead gorgeous, seemed to want all the same things I did out of life and believe the same things I did.
It wasn’t long before Isaac (not his real name) showed his true colors. It turned out, that he was none of the things I thought he was, he was lying to me to “get with me”. At first I was in denial, and in desperation I gave myself to him. I regret this. It wasn’t long after that he stopped pretending all together and I was faced with a stark and strange dichotomy: the man I thought was Christian, loving and principled was actually a pathological liar, drug user and pusher, abusive mentally and physically. Our whole relationship lasted about 4 months, the last two of which were utter hell.
I finally gathered my courage and left him. Three weeks later, I went to see my doctor for I had a very strange and persistent case of the flu. Imagine my shock (and my mother’s, who was with me) when the doctor told me that I did not in fact have the flu but was pregnant.
My whole world came crashing down in that moment. It’s bad enough to be an out-of-wedlock pregnant teen, but it wasn’t just MY reputation that was going to be damaged, but my parents as well. I was *that* pastor’s daughter. My family is extremely conservative and tight-knit; how would they react? My church involvements–what would happen? Nursing school is grueling–what would I do? What would people think of me? Would this ruin my chance at true love and happiness? What godly man would want damaged goods? What kind of a life could I provide for a child; I wasn’t done with my degree and previously had worked a bit in retail but mostly under-the-table nannying. In fact, I was nannying part time–what kind of example would I be to the kids? What would those people think? And furthermore, if I had the baby and kept the baby, what about the derelict father? Obviously a drug-abusing, me-abusing, job-losing and unstable guy was not an ideal father. If I gave the baby up, how could I know the baby would be ok? What would the baby think of me? What if the father tried to take the baby?
I had a decision to make. The doctor gave me her card and said she knew a good abortion doctor, and to think it over. I didn’t want to tell my dad, and I didn’t want to make this decision alone. I figured I at least owed the father the knowledge I was pregnant, so I called him. To my surprise, he told me that he missed me and loved me and he’d take care of me and the baby and come see him and we’d figure it all out.
So we got back together. This lasted exactly four days, because it turned out that instead of his words being true (big surprise) he only wanted to get back together so he could convince me to abort. At that point, I was against the idea, so his efforts were frustratingly futile. So he decided to take matters into his own hands, raping me in hopes that it would cause me to lose the baby. I did begin bleeding, and he put his arm around me and told me that it was god’s will. But it wasn’t, and I remained pregnant. I told him it was over, and he threatened to kill me, and kill the baby (in horrible detail) if I went through with the pregnancy. On top of all of my other concerns, now I was a victim of rape and my life had been threatened.
But I was raised pro-life, and have always been deeply pro-life. I knew that I couldn’t murder my baby. I knew it was a baby, and not a blob of tissue. I knew that babies are inherently gifts, and that two wrongs don’t make a right. If anyone had a reason to abort, I surely did. But I couldn’t deny the reality of my situation, or my moral obligation before my Creator. So instead I knew my choice was between adoption or keeping my baby.
And it wasn’t easy. And I know of other girls who have made similar choices who don’t regret their choice for life, but it certainly made things hard on them for awhile. I was lucky. I couldn’t tell my dad, so I spent the night at my friend’s and had my mom tell him. To my surprise, he looked down and closed his eyes for a moment, and then looked back up at my mom, smiled, and said “Well, I guess that means we’ll have a little one around here”. I was lucky: because of the public and obvious nature of my sin, my pastor requested that I go up in front of the congregation and repent and ask for forgiveness.
I don’t know about you, but that was probably the most terrifying thought I had in this whole process. Seriously? Get up in front of rows upon rows of conservative Christians and say “I screwed up and now I’m a teenage pregnancy statistic?” But again, I was blessed, I was lucky. When I got through my written-down speech, there was silence for a moment, and then the ENTIRE church got up out of their seats and came forward to give me a hug and pray for me and the baby. It was such a poignant and beautiful expression of Christ’s forgiveness and love, and I will never forget it.
I decided to give up on my career, for the moment, and went back to work full time for insurance purposes. I decided to keep my baby rather than adopt the baby out, and I informed the father of my choice, and told him instead of hurting us, he could have a free out. Instead of receiving child support or having him involved in our lives in any way, I gave him a choice of leaving or staying. He left, and I haven’t heard from him since.
It wasn’t easy, it wasn’t always happy, and I spent much of my pregnancy mourning. Dealing with friends who couldn’t understand why I gave up on my career instead of aborting, dealing with judgemental looks from people, dealing with morning sickness, living in fear that the father would make good on his promises of harm, grieving the ways he victimized me, afraid that I would never be attractive to a godly man, afraid of being a single mother.
But my story has a happy ending. It STILL isn’t easy in some ways, and I will always carry the scars of my past. One day, while I was pregnant and crying my eyes out over my situation, God began gently ‘speaking’ to me about the situation through His precious word. He led me to the verse that talks about how the Lord brings beauty from the ashes, and instantly I knew the reason He allowed a pregnancy from such an awful circumstance. You see, He didn’t send my daughter to condemn me or to punish me or remind me of my failures.
He sent my daughter to me to redeem me. To protect me from myself (obviously, I had to stop being selfish and grow up a bit, and not indulge in my self-destructive tendencies). And to bring SOMETHING beautiful and worthy out of such a hopeless and horrible period of my life. Children are a blessing and a heritage, and the Bible says that it is the Lord who opens and closes the womb. Every baby is God’s intention. And His intention for me was to bring me joy. And in that moment, he gave me a name.
Arianna. It means “purity” in most translations, and “joy” in others. In Greek mythology, it was Ariadne’s string that led the adventurer out of the labyrinth, and is associated with “a reliable way out”. I didn’t understand the full meaning of this until later. At the time, I thought God was telling me that the baby was meant to be a way out of the miserable circumstances, not a compounding of it, but now I think it had more meaning than that.
Being a single mom was not easy. It was so hard to work and leave her for any period of time, since being a SAHM was a value I grew up with. It was hard not having a partner. But graciously, my time was short.
One day at church, a rather dashing and smiley young man noticed my baby. He didn’t notice me, he noticed my baby. He came over and exclaimed on how cute she was, and wanted to hold her. We struck up a friendship, and about a year later, a relationship. We got married just after she turned 2. We always joke that we may never have met had it not been for my cute baby.
The funny thing is, she actually looks more like him than she does me. Her biological father had similar coloring to her adoptive one. In fact, her little sister–his biological daughter– has my coloring and looks less his daughter. My life is beautiful, meaningful, and happy now. I would never undo the decision I made, because so many things along the way have confirmed it was the right thing. I regret sinning, I regret falling for such a loser and then allowing him to victimize me, but I do not for one second regret my child. She knows on some level that she is not Hubby’s bio kid, but he has always been her Daddy. I do not regret all of the pain and hardship I endured to give my child life, and I am so grateful that God had buried the secrets of life in my heart long before I was ever faced with the decision.
If I can do it, I know you can too. If you can’t do it alone, know there are those that would help you. All you need to do is ask. And know that above all, you are loved.
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“So please stop taking the cop-out. You’re letting the law decide your morality.”
And you are letting the Bible decide yours. What’s the difference?
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